Reimagine Change…Management
BRIAN ALFOND: Hello, folks. Welcome to this episode of the Reimagine Marketing podcast. I'm your host, Brian Alfond. I'm part of SAS's Global Customer Intelligence Group, where I work with customers to find elegant and creative solutions to their marketing problems.
In the last episode, I shared how, in the process of renovating my kitchen, I discovered many parallels with the challenges organizations face whenever they decide to reimagine part or all of their marketing. And in this episode, I'd like to further explore this topic-- change management, not my kitchen, clearly-- with someone who, as previously alluded to, has spent time in similar professional trenches as have I.
Kate Parker is currently the director of markets and growth for SAS Customer Intelligence here at SAS. She has over 15 years of experience in marketing as a cross-industry marketing advisory consultant, a marketing technology systems implementer, and as a MarTech solutions architect.
Now part of the sales organization, she believes that sales is more than just selling a product but rather providing customers with the solution to a business problem. Although a self-proclaimed talker, she credits her success in-- and perhaps more importantly, her satisfaction with-- her career to being an attentive listener, listening to the challenges her customers face and then collaborating with them on solutions to those challenges.
It's those 15 years in the consulting trenches that I'm particularly interested in today. And Kate and I have spoken often how managing change is often the most critical part of a successful business transformation or of a software implementation.
Welcome, Kate. And thanks for joining me on the podcast.
KATE PARKER: Hi, Brian. Thanks for having me.
BRIAN ALFOND: My pleasure. I'm going to start with an easy one. In your view, why is change such a challenge?
KATE PARKER: Change is a challenge. Change is hard, right? I think we all know that any time anything changes in our life that takes us away from the status quo, it's hard to work through, right?
And, when we were kind of talking through what we were going to discuss, the example that I gave you was my son. This is kind of a ridiculous example, but my son just changed rooms at daycare.
And why I care that my son is changing rooms at daycare, moving away from the teachers that I know and the room that he's in, and I'm so comfortable with that scenario, the change that he's moving up into a new classroom and new teachers and new students in there. And it's different.
Now, if I take a step back and I reflect on why do I care if he's moving from a two's classroom to a three's classroom-- again, again, somewhat ridiculous-- I care because I recognize it's going to be a challenge for him. It's a challenge for me.
But in order for him to grow, he has to do this, right? He has to keep moving. He has to keep changing. So change is hard because it's the unknown, right?
BRIAN ALFOND: I think that's very, very accurate. You're giving up something. You're giving up control, certainly. You're giving up what's familiar to you. I love what you just said there and maybe we can spend a little bit more time on that, that change is required for him to grow.
BRIAN ALFOND: And so if we could extrapolate from that, any organization, in order to grow, is going to have to change.
KATE PARKER: Yeah. I think organizations-- and I think you and I see this in our daily working environment, right? We're changing constantly. And we're trying to figure out, as a team, how we adapt. All the organizations that we work with, day in and day out, are also constantly adapting.
And especially in today's world, with digital transformation efforts underway and the constant flux of new systems being implemented, new vendors being brought in, it's a constant churn, if you will, of new technologies, new people being brought into the mix with previous experiences where we're trying to blend all that together and new processes that we're having to explore to make everything make sense. It's a challenge.
BRIAN ALFOND: I agree with that 100%. And then you add the pandemic on top of everything and how we all had to make significant changes over that time period. I'd like to follow this, your example, a little more, if we could, because I think it's really important. And I work best when I start with some sort of metaphor or analogy and can extrapolate from that.
And I think, just in thinking about how I would work with an organization to prepare them for change in the past, it's probably going to be very close to how you helped prepare your son for that change. Because I'm going to assume that you had some conversations with him other than just saying, hey, new classroom. Here you go.
KATE PARKER: Well, you would think. No, I'm kidding. Yes, I did. I mean, we had talked, several days before, saying, hey, you're going to be having a new classroom. A lot of your friends are going to be going with you. But you're going to have new friends in there, too. And your teachers that you know and love are not going to be the same. So you will have some change there.
I will say, when I walked into the building, I had no idea where I was going or what classroom he was in. So I'm clearly winning all of the rewards for parenting. But, you know, I did. I communicated with him. And I helped him understand what he was in for, as best I could.
BRIAN ALFOND: You set some expectations.
KATE PARKER: Yeah. Yeah.
BRIAN ALFOND: Also, it sounds like you set some expectations for yourself. Because what you said, I didn't know where I was going-- well, how could you? It's a new classroom, right? So to me, that means-- I'm just going to equate you to leadership.
KATE PARKER: Yep.
BRIAN ALFOND: They may not know, either.
KATE PARKER: Yeah.
BRIAN ALFOND: But you were clear on what the goal was, right?
KATE PARKER: Yes.
BRIAN ALFOND: New opportunity for him to grow and learn. And I think that's a key point, from what I've found in my past life, of going into an organization. If the leadership knows why, and they've communicated that all the way down, I'm not saying change still is going to be easy. But at least you know why you're going in that direction.
KATE PARKER: And honestly, that to me, is the most important aspect. Communication, for any change, is the number one priority. But also, the why behind the change has to be so clearly articulated ahead of any major change, in order for something to be successful.
So again, take, for example, within our own organization, when things change, how much better does it go when someone says the change is coming and here's why we did that. And here's what this will look like for you.
I mean, for me, personally, it's night and day, whether I am able to adopt that change or adapt to it, if you will, versus if someone just says, this is changing, and you don't need to know why.
BRIAN ALFOND: Or even worse, this is just how you're going to do it. Because I said so. Which-- as I'm also a parent, my kid's significantly older than yours-- there were times when I did fall into the "because I said so." But I think there are appropriate times for that as well.
KATE PARKER: Oh, yeah.
BRIAN ALFOND: This probably-- if you're trying to do a major digital transformation or even doing some sort of major MarTech reimplementation, reorganization, whatever, that's not going to fly, in my experience.
KATE PARKER: No.
BRIAN ALFOND: The we-say-so corporation never worked. It never worked.
KATE PARKER: Nope. I think that's where you go into one of the reasons that we're here today is to talk about change management.
BRIAN ALFOND: Yes. What did you do, in your-- well, I know what you do now. And I will say-- I'm not trying to suck up-- you do a great job of it. And I think that we're in an organization that sets a really great example, within our little corner of the world there, into how to manage change with the people that are undergoing that.
But from your consulting days, what did you have that worked? What was your approach? Did you meet any resistance? How would you overcome that?
KATE PARKER: Woo.
BRIAN ALFOND: A whole bunch of questions in there.
KATE PARKER: Whole lot of resistance. So my background was, for a while, marketing advisory consulting, but also marketing resource management implementations, which is a whole lot of process, a whole lot of change management.
And there's absolutely resistance. Because, again, change is hard. But I think one of the things that I did well, as a consultant, and that I would try and work with the organizations again that I worked with, was, again, working through the process of understanding why we were here, what we're trying to achieve, and being able to articulate that in a way that project sponsors, key stakeholders, were all aligned to that vision or to where we were headed.
And if you have that in place before you head down the path of asking everybody to change what they're doing and adopting new processes, new systems, et cetera, that's a huge win.
BRIAN ALFOND: Yes.
KATE PARKER: Right? Starting off on a level playing field where everyone is saying yes, nodding their heads, I agree to what we're trying to achieve.
BRIAN ALFOND: Mm-hmm. You're absolutely right. How many times did you have to walk in and assist with that? Did you ever have the great situation where you had walked in and they were already in that process of communicating that change?
KATE PARKER: No, I would say in most scenarios I was in kind of early on in the process, where I was able to work with them and kind of shape out what that looked like and provide insight into, again, best practices, strategies for communicating upfront, again, aligning those key stakeholders, and then implementing a communication plan and strategy, ultimately to drive adoption.
BRIAN ALFOND: You said "best practices." That always triggers something with me. I think in our professional experiences before, even now, I've found-- could be wrong in this-- that whenever a customer would ask me for best practices, what they were really asking for was for me to tell them that what they're doing right now was best practices. And I would always just say, well, then why am I here? Right?
KATE PARKER: Right.
BRIAN ALFOND: So obviously, you might have some things that are, but clearly there are some things that you still want to change. Anyway, that's just the "best practices" aside.
The other thing that you said that I really would like to drill down is about having all the stakeholders there, horizontally and vertically. Could you talk a little bit more about that?
KATE PARKER: Yeah. With any process, again, with any technology that you implement, you have the horizontal structure, your leadership, who are typically your sponsors, your key stakeholders of the project that you're trying to execute. Their alignment is critical. But then also, if you think of the functions that support the various elements of the process they also have to be on the same page.
But going back to your "best practices" piece a couple of seconds ago, that's where, particularly in the functional area, you get a lot of the pushback. Because it's, well, this is how we do it today.
And again, not saying what you're doing is wrong. Again, people could come into our positions today and say, you're doing this wrong. And frankly, we probably should say, OK, I'm open to growth, I'm open to change, and listen to them.
BRIAN ALFOND: I agree.
KATE PARKER: But the number of times that I think each of us has probably heard, this is the way it's always been done.
BRIAN ALFOND: Yes.
KATE PARKER: But that doesn't mean it's being done right. And I'm not saying what you're doing is wrong, but I'm sure there's ways that we can improve it.
BRIAN ALFOND: There have always been tap dancing sessions in any of those meetings where-- because you don't want to say you're doing it wrong. But you do see-- because you're an outsider, you do tend to see, oh, well, that could be a little different, or that could be a little different.
And we have the benefit of talking to multiple companies and not just being within one. So I do think that's a very important thing. And that takes some skill to be able to tell somebody that, I know what you're doing. I know you care, you're passionate about it. That's fantastic. How about this, though?
And I will say, in my younger days, maybe I wasn't so patient or so great at communicating that. But I think that that's-- as people did that to me, exactly what you're talking about, come into our organizations and managed our change, I'm like, oh, I'm going to try to that. That really makes a lot of sense.
KATE PARKER: Well, I think it's a lot easier when someone comes in and, honestly, a third party comes in, and provides some outside expertise and says, OK, let's talk about what your current state is. I'm an outside participant. I do not know what your processes are. I don't know what your systems currently look like or who does what.
Let's talk about it. Let's kind of start with this. And you and I have done many sessions around this. What technology you're using? What's the process behind it? Who's doing what? And just, again, level setting on that current state.
BRIAN ALFOND: Yes.
KATE PARKER: And then starting to go into, OK, well what if you did it this way? Oh. Well, I hadn't thought about it that way.
BRIAN ALFOND: Mm-hmm. Those are great moments. When those happen and you get that buy-in, those are great moments. As the consultant, we think, oh, cool, OK.
KATE PARKER: But that's what's required, I think, to help people change, is to get on the same page as them, in terms of where you currently stand, and then aligning to that future vision and working through it together. Because if you come in and you say, I don't really care what you're doing today. You're going to do it this way. That is not going to work.
BRIAN ALFOND: That probably would not have worked very well with your son.
KATE PARKER: Ooh, correct, no.
BRIAN ALFOND: You were able to get down to his level and understand, OK, well, this is what he's going to be concerned with. And life is the same thing over and over again. The universe continues to put things in front of you that you have to work on. So whether it's change with your son or change of your Global 100 company, it's essentially-- to me-- the same thing.
KATE PARKER: Yeah.
BRIAN ALFOND: It always has been. It's all that same conversation. So what would you do-- and I'm curious. I don't know if we want to trade stories here because that could get dangerous. But maybe you could tell me and the listeners a little bit-- when you had that management chain that was just, no, we're just going to tell them. And I know you've had them because we've talked about this. I have not yet found a surefire way to be able to overcome that.
KATE PARKER: I think when you have those resisters, it's opening the door for further conversation. And, again, welcoming them into the table and saying, tell me why. I need to hear why this is so hard or why you're pushing back so much.
Because you obviously feel very strongly about this. And that's OK. That's good. You're passionate about what you do. But you're not all that unique. You're not unique in terms of wanting to just kind of stay the same. So why are you so-- I guess you can't probably say "hell-bent" on a podcast, but--
BRIAN ALFOND: "Hidebound." You can say it.
KATE PARKER: Why are you so hidebound on keeping with this, right? You know, why? And if they can clearly articulate it, then that's, again, room for us to continue to iterate on what's the right way to approach this.
But if not, then that, again, brings us to the table where we can say, OK, now this is, again, repeating why we're doing this and that we have the support that's required from the executive team. And here's where we are. So we need to figure out a way to productively work through this and figure out what our path forward is.
But I do find that the more that-- sometimes there is absolutely a time where you have to shut it down and just say this is the way it's being done.
BRIAN ALFOND: Yes. And I think that's more, as you said earlier when we were having another conversation, that's really more at the functional level. But at the strategy level, maybe it's there too. There are times you have to shut it down.
KATE PARKER: There are. But you don't want to get there, right?
BRIAN ALFOND: Right. Because I don't know if your people will follow you then.
KATE PARKER: Yeah. No, I think you continue to open the door and have constructive conversations to figure out how to progress, how to move forward.
BRIAN ALFOND: So the thought popped into my head as you were talking about, it's another opportunity to listen, it's another opportunity to understand the why and to ask the questions why.
No company names, obviously. But there was one time when I said, well, the only way that we're going to be able to get through this is to try it and either succeed and we, the consulting company, is wrong, or it's going to fail. And it's not going to be an I-told-you-so moment. But that's the time to say, well, what if we try it this way?
I think, to a certain degree-- and maybe it's scarier now because there's so many new channels-- people are terrified of failure. But how the heck else do you learn?
KATE PARKER: I think there's absolutely those instances. And sometimes it's when the organization as a whole disagrees with the approach, and they make a decision to proceed as they want. And I've been in the situation where, six months later, we've received the OK, you were right. Let's change it. Let's go through and modify our processes, modify the solution, et cetera. But I think it's going to happen.
BRIAN ALFOND: Absolutely.
KATE PARKER: You want to avoid it, but you can't always avoid it, right? Again, it just opens the door for continuous reform and change as you move along. And as they start to use the system, move throughout these processes, they recognize, hmm, this wasn't really what I expected. Or there's way too much here. I over-architected the solution.
BRIAN ALFOND: Yes.
KATE PARKER: I don't want to take away the goodness, the art and the science aspect of marketing. I don't want to take away my artistic portion of this process. So--
BRIAN ALFOND: Absolutely.
KATE PARKER: --we're going to separate the two and make processes more milestone-based and, again, allow more flexibility. So just those kind of scenarios where you do revisit it and no love lost, it makes sense.
BRIAN ALFOND: I really love that you just said you don't want to take away the art. And we don't. Because, as much as, you know , you want to get into the analytics and the A/B testing and all this, and as much as AI is supposed to be the futurem there is still that art. And there's still that creativity and the gut instinct that you need to promote, to support. Which is why I don't like micromanaging any type of process, right? Let's please leave room for that.
KATE PARKER: Right.
BRIAN ALFOND: Leave room for that. I'm very glad that you brought the art back into it. Because that's also where you can learn. Unexpected things happen there. That's a really good point.
You were also talking about bringing in a new system. The "blame the software," I think in my-- whatever I wrote, I wrote something-- that silverware better be in the first darn drawer they open. Otherwise, you know, you're going to hear, oh, well, this is never going to work. And in your experience, have you-- A, one, I'm going to assume that you've encountered that. And then, how have you countered that?
KATE PARKER: I go back to, honestly, what I just said. Open the door for the conversation and talk about why isn't it going to work. Again, just saying because it's not how we do it today is not the right reason.
But what is it? Is it the way that you're clicking the button? Is it the way that the process is architected? Is it how you're aligning with this other area of the organization? What isn't working about it?
And if they're blaming the software, there's obviously more to it, right? Sometimes it is the software, right? We work for a software company. We--
BRIAN ALFOND: Yep. Sometimes the button's just not where it's supposed to be.
KATE PARKER: --fully acknowledge that it can be the software, at times, so not saying that at all. But is there more to the story? So just opening the door for conversation, communication.
BRIAN ALFOND: Right. There's two, three, maybe four equal parts of the equation. The software's one of those variables. But then you do-- you have your process. You have your change and everything else. That's a very good point.
And I think-- I know in our role in the sales side now, we do try to talk to our customers about, hey, this is a big change, what you're talking about, depending on where they are in their digital transformation. But even if you're just bringing in new software, that can be a big change to the people who are invested and who take great pride in their jobs. It sounds like what you're saying is, the more communication, the better.
KATE PARKER: Yeah, and I think, again, you and I like to lead even presales conversations with workshops, right?
BRIAN ALFOND: Yes.
KATE PARKER: That's our comfort zone. We like to-- what's our starting point? Get a common ground of where we currently stand and then paint that vision for the future. I think that's so pivotal to succeeding with any technology is that common understanding before you move forward.
BRIAN ALFOND: Comfort zone. I am way out of my comfort zone if I can't do that.
KATE PARKER: Right.
BRIAN ALFOND: If you're dropped in and say, well, we just want to replace the software. And if I don't know the wherefore and the why-- and this could be a personal failing, I don't know, but-- I get nervous. But I need to know why.
KATE PARKER: Yeah.
BRIAN ALFOND: And I often think that, well, if I need to know why, then maybe they have people that need to know why, as well.
KATE PARKER: You're not unique there.
BRIAN ALFOND: Oh, good. Oh, good. I think I have a question here, but I think you've already answered it. My question I wrote down was, "Can a mismanaged implementation be saved?" I'll just queue it up to say, communicate.
KATE PARKER: Yeah. Yeah. I think it absolutely can be saved. Because nothing ever goes exactly as planned, right? If it did, then the world would be perfect. There's inherently flaws in everything that we do.
So mismanaged implementation, you can come at that many different ways, in terms of who mismanaged it, what side was it on. Ultimately, it doesn't matter. Once things are in there and you all have to figure out how to move forward, everyone needs to come to our proverbial table, sit down, and figure out what that path forward looks like, to figure out how do we collectively change. And that can be even these third parties coming in to the table saying, I need you to change how you did this, right?
BRIAN ALFOND: Yes. I've heard that many times.
KATE PARKER: Yep, yep. Received that feedback, too, so-- which is good, again, for my personal growth, your personal growth.
BRIAN ALFOND: Yes, I almost wish that more people would provide some honest-- it doesn't have to be cruel, but provide some good--
KATE PARKER: (LAUGHING) Constructive feedback.
BRIAN ALFOND: No, seriously, how else do we learn? How else do we grow?
Speaking of that, I think that might be a good place to wrap this conversation because I'm about to ask for some of that. So I really do appreciate your stories, your insights, and your take on these things. It's nice to record one of these conversations that we have on an afternoon.
And I hope that you, the listener, did as well. So if you did enjoy today's episode, or even if you didn't, you can head on over to SAS.com/ReimagineMarketingPodcast-- that's all one word-- and join in the conversation.
You can subscribe to the series on your favorite podcast platforms too. Just search for "Reimagine Marketing." And you can submit your constructive feedback or your ideas for topics or guests, as well as anything else you'd like to let us know, by emailing us at remimagemarketingpodcast@sas.com where, once again, "remimagemarketingpodcast" is all one word.
I'd like to thank my guest, Kate Parker, and I'd like to thank you, the listener, for listening. And please consider joining us next time. Until then, this is Brian Alfond hoping that all the important things in your life are good.
